How to Flourish (with Daniel Coyle)

Flourishing: The Art of Building Meaning, Joy, and Fulfillment, a book by author and consultant Daniel Coyle, has caught the attention of many, including EconTalk host Russ Roberts. In a recent episode of EconTalk, Roberts welcomed Coyle to discuss his book and delve into the concept of flourishing.

Coyle defines flourishing as “the experience of joyful, meaningful growth shared with others.” This definition sets the tone for the discussion that follows. Coyle explains that flourishing is not a machine-like process that can be optimized or predicted. Instead, it is a natural process that mirrors the development of living systems. Living systems, he notes, grow from the inside out, not from the outside in, and cannot be controlled from the top down.

Human beings, Coyle argues, find their roots in meaning. Meaning is the substrate on which our lives are built, and joy is a natural byproduct of this process. When we experience flourishing, we feel alive, surprised, and connected to others. It is a messy process, Coyle admits, one that defies neatness and predictability. Ultimately, all flourishing is mutual and interdependent; it is shared growth that emerges from the connections we form with others.

Roberts and Coyle explore the idea of saying yes to ‘yellow doors’—opportunities that may lie outside our comfort zones and seem uncertain or risky. Coyle emphasizes the importance of embracing these opportunities for growth and the element of surprise they bring. He argues that modernity’s obsession with straight-line solutions and self-improvement has led to a misconception about the nature of flourishing. Instead of viewing life as a linear path to be optimized, we should embrace its complexity and unpredictability.

Complex systems, Coyle explains, are not the same every time they are put together. They are dynamic, evolving, and interconnected, much like the process of flourishing. By recognizing and embracing the squiggly, non-linear nature of life, we can open ourselves up to new possibilities, experiences, and connections that contribute to our overall sense of meaning, joy, and fulfillment.

In conclusion, Flourishing: The Art of Building Meaning, Joy, and Fulfillment offers a refreshing perspective on personal growth and well-being. By reimagining flourishing as a natural, interconnected process, Coyle invites readers to embrace the messiness of life and find joy in the unexpected moments of growth and connection. It is a book that challenges traditional notions of success and offers a roadmap for living a more fulfilling and meaningful life. If I have an assembly line to build a Ferrari, and I do all the right things at the right time, and I put that on a piece of paper, that’s how to build a Ferrari. You won’t get a different result. Complex systems are a lot–

Russ Roberts: And, it’s complicated because it’s [inaudible 00:06:29].

Daniel Coyle: It’s complicated, it’s extremely complicated. You need expertise. Like, you can’t just do it: you need expertise. But, that expertise is about putting A to B to C to D.

Complex systems are like raising a teenager. Like, they change. What you do changes the system. And it changes you, too.

So, our misunderstanding–the reason I think this yellow door concept seems kind of strange and counterintuitive, I think, is that we have a fundamental–we’re trained on this idea that the world is complicated, when in fact, what we’re in is this giant complexity game, where we are trying to navigate these new possibilities. And these yellow doors–which, of course, to go back to what you were talking about–the green doors that we encounter are a clear signal to go forward, the red doors are a clear signal to stop, and the interesting stuff in life is at these curves where you actually have a choice and there’s a yellow door, and you go through.

And sometimes that feels miraculous. When you look back on people’s life story, they will often tell you a yellow-door story of, ‘Oh, I didn’t get into the school I wanted to get into, and then I was at a bar, and I met this person, and they changed my life.’ Well, that’s the way the world actually is. It’s liberating to realize that the problem that you’re facing is not one that the world has. The world is filled with yellow doors. The problem is that the model you have in your head is a straight-line model in a squiggly world.

Russ Roberts: Yeah. We don’t like uncertainty. We talk about it a lot on the program. There’s probably evolutionary reasons that it creeps us out and makes us run away and look for the green door. But, I think modernity has this great gift, that for many of us, we’re privileged and lucky enough to have lives where a yellow door that’s a mistake is not a end of the game. You can just come back through a different door and you’ll be okay. But that doesn’t come naturally to us.

Russ Roberts: Your book is divided into two parts: Presence and Group Flow. And, your definition of Presence is, again, a little different from what I would have said. How would you define it? What do you mean by presence, and why is it important?

Daniel Coyle: Well, what we’re really talking about here is the way our attention systems work. And, one of the things that the book really showed me, and the research for the book taught me, was that we tend to think about attention as a single thing. And we all know we’re in this attentional crisis, right? Like, we all acknowledge this: we’re in an attentional crisis.

But, what we lack is a clear model of what attentional health is, what it looks like. It’s like we’re trying to eat well, but we don’t understand the building blocks: we don’t understand proteins, carbohydrates, and fats.

So, the way attention actually works–and it’s kind of an interesting backstory why we got off on the wrong track–attention isn’t just this narrow focus thing that we usually think of. There’s actually two systems in play. One of them is task attention: It’s narrow, it’s focused. It’s built on controlling things, it’s built on predicting things. It treats the world as kind of a flat puzzle piece to be manipulated.

But then, the other type of attention is relational attention–relational–and that means connecting it to your whole wide world around you, paying attention to everything. And evolutionarily, this exists for some really powerful reasons. All of our ancestors had to do two contradictory things: they had to eat–which was focus narrowly on a target, identify it, categorize it, grab it–and pay attention to this vast fabric of reality–to storms coming in, to family, to nuanced interaction, to relationships.

And, the modern world has kind of privileged this narrow task attention over–and that’s where presence comes in. Presence is the activation of relational attention that creates connected[?connective?] energy. It’s the stuff that relationships are made of. We don’t get relationships by treating people as objects and tasks to be accomplished. We get them by stopping. And it happens in a moment of receptive stillness that occurs again and again. And, when we have those moments of receptive stillness–when we stop trying to do and we simply pay attention to what’s around us–we see yellow doors. We see things, and we come into relationship with things in a different way.

And the places that I visited, from–there was a little deli in Michigan that’s grown into this giant business, to a pro baseball team, to a school–they’re all creating this attentional architecture that fuels and boosts relational attention to create shared presence, to create those moments of presence. And, that moment of presence is where we get meaning: it’s where we get the meaning in our lives. And it treats meaning as this renewable resource where you’re fueling up on meaning and then doing some tasks.

Russ Roberts: So, some listeners may hear that and think that’s nice, but I think it’s a lot of hooey. I don’t even know if that’s a word, ‘hooey.’ I don’t know where it came from. And, I would have said that probably 20 years ago, but I am not that person anymore. And of course, you reference the work of Iain McGilchrist, The Master and His Emissary, and as a past EconTalk guest where we talked about that, those two kinds of attention, and I encourage listeners to go back and listen to that episode to look at–I would say read his book, but his book is quite dense and quite challenging. I know the route, I know the destination, I know the stops. But, when there’s that one person on the bus who’s talking on their phone loudly, or playing music without headphones, or just being disruptive in some way, my first instinct is: I want to control that situation. I want to either tell them to be quiet or move away from them. It’s my natural impulse, and I have to fight against it sometimes.

But, when I can step back and let go of that need for control, when I can surrender to the moment and just observe without judgment, that’s when the magic happens. That’s when I can truly connect with the people around me, whether it’s a stranger on the bus or a loved one at home. It’s those moments of curiosity and surrender that make life rich and meaningful.

So, the next time you find yourself in a conversation or a situation where your natural impulse is to control, try taking a step back. Try riding the bicycle with no hands, metaphorically speaking. See what happens when you let go of that need for control and embrace curiosity instead. You might just find that the quality of your relationships, your conversations, and ultimately, your life, improves in ways you never imagined. In a recent conversation with Michael Easter, Daniel Coyle discussed his struggles with uncertainty and the need for control in various aspects of his life. He mentioned how difficult it is for him to drive with someone when he doesn’t know where they are turning, or to hike without using AllTrails or Google Maps to ensure he is going in the right direction. Coyle emphasized the importance of giving up a little control in order to experience the richness of life.

Coyle highlighted the connection between uncertainty and vitality, stating that the more certain one is, the less vital life seems. He shared a vivid memory of biking without hands, feeling a sense of aliveness and vitality in that moment of uncertainty. Coyle also discussed the relationship between meaning and mystery, suggesting that leaning into something mysterious together can lead to profound insights and connections.

Drawing on the story of the Chilean miners who survived underground by coming together and embracing mystery, Coyle emphasized the power of surrender and leaning into the unknown. He described moments of ritual or presence as opportunities to let go of control and connect with something larger than oneself.

In response, Russ Roberts highlighted the importance of connections with others in finding meaning in life. He acknowledged that introverts may find meaning in solitude, but emphasized the power of relationships with other human beings, causes, or the divine in inspiring and connecting us.

Coyle added that in moments of meaningful connection, the ego tends to disappear, allowing for a deeper sense of aliveness and connection. He proposed that meaning is not just about acquiring information, but about experiencing connected energy and leaning into mysteries that connect us to something greater.

Coyle also discussed the idea of using control in service of larger relationships, emphasizing the importance of nesting controlling intelligence within relational awareness. He referenced Iain McGilchrist’s concept of the master and his emissary, suggesting that relational attention should be the foundational focus, with controlling attention serving that higher purpose.

Roberts then prompted Coyle to discuss the concept of the time traveler house and awakening cues, which Coyle attributed to Harvard professor Ellen Langer. The experiment conducted by Langer in the 1970s involved creating an environment that evoked a sense of timelessness and mindfulness, leading to increased awareness and presence in participants.

Overall, the conversation between Coyle and Roberts delved into the complexities of uncertainty, control, meaning, and connection in life, highlighting the profound impact of surrendering to mystery and embracing relationships with others. By relinquishing control and leaning into the unknown, individuals may find a deeper sense of vitality and richness in their experiences. But, it’s really about creating the conditions for people to come alive, to engage with each other, and to explore new possibilities. The idea of stepping into a different time period, whether real or imagined, can shake us out of our routines and spark our curiosity and creativity.

In the case of the old monastery retrofitted to look like 1959, the physical environment served as a trigger for memories and emotions from the past. The residents were forced to adapt to a new setting, which required them to think and act differently. This change in routine and environment likely contributed to their increased vitality and energy.

The concept of awakening cues, as described by Professor Langer, highlights the importance of creating spaces that encourage people to engage with each other and with their surroundings. By introducing elements that spark curiosity and connection, we can tap into our relational attention and experience life more fully.

The idea of group flow, where individuals come together to work towards a common goal, also plays a role in this transformation. When people are given the freedom to self-organize and explore new possibilities, they can unlock their creativity and vitality. This sense of shared purpose and collaboration can lead to a sense of camaraderie and connection that energizes and uplifts everyone involved.

Overall, the story of the retrofitted monastery serves as a powerful reminder of the impact that our environment and interactions can have on our well-being. By creating spaces that inspire curiosity, connection, and creativity, we can unlock new levels of vitality and energy that can transform our lives for the better. The lack of clear scientific language to describe certain experiences is a common challenge that many people face. For example, the feeling of receiving a shot of epinephrine to the heart is often used to describe intense moments of excitement or exhilaration. However, when discussing flourishing experiences with individuals, a recurring theme emerges: the idea of navigating challenges and uncertainties with others and growing as a result.

This concept of self-organization and growth in the face of adversity echoes the way our ancestors evolved over thousands of years, in small groups, facing tough situations and figuring things out together. It aligns with the principles of complexity science, which emphasizes the importance of constraints, gradients, and freedom in shaping our experiences and growth.

In essence, life and our experiences are not mechanical but rather dynamic and fluid, like rivers. Just as a river needs a gradient, river banks, and freedom to flow and grow, our experiences also require direction, boundaries, and autonomy to thrive.

One example that illustrates this concept is the Spaghetti Tower experiment conducted by Peter Skillman. In this experiment, teams of four individuals were tasked with building the tallest tower using limited resources, including uncooked spaghetti and a marshmallow. Surprisingly, kindergartners outperformed teams of CEOs, lawyers, and MBA students by embracing chaos, trying different approaches, and collaborating in a spontaneous and creative manner.

The key takeaway from this experiment is the power of shared agency in motion, where individuals work together seamlessly to solve complex problems and achieve great results. This shared flow, similar to the coordination seen in schools of fish or flocks of birds, is essential for building strong teams and fostering innovation.

Ultimately, the ability to get in the flow and embrace uncertainty and challenges with a sense of autonomy and collaboration is what leads to flourishing experiences and personal growth. By creating environments that encourage self-navigation, constraint, and a sense of purpose, individuals can tap into their full potential and achieve remarkable outcomes. In today’s fast-paced world, it can be easy to get caught up in the hustle and bustle of daily life. We often find ourselves constantly on the go, multitasking, and rarely taking the time to slow down and connect with the deeper aspects of ourselves and our relationships. But, as author Daniel Coyle points out, there are ways to tap into deeper forms of attention, the more relational kinds, that can help us access something beyond ourselves, a sense of connectedness that is essential for our well-being.

Coyle discusses various practices that can help us cultivate this deeper form of attention, such as meditation, prayer, poetry, psychotherapy, and even fiction. These practices allow us to take a pause, take a breath, and be still, in order to access something that we don’t naturally access – this outside-ourselves connectedness thing.

One example that Coyle provides is a gratitude practice that involves thinking about people who have loved us into being and helped us become who we are. This exercise encourages us to reflect on the individuals who have played a significant role in our lives, both near and far, and to acknowledge the impact they have had on shaping who we are today. By taking the time to think about these individuals, we can experience a sense of gratitude and connection that can be incredibly powerful and transformative.

Coyle also highlights the importance of rituals in fostering relational attention. He notes that rituals, such as the one Fred Rogers of “Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood” performed at the 1997 Emmy Awards, can help us cultivate a sense of community and connection with others. These rituals provide us with moments of pause and reflection, where we can let go of the need for measurable outcomes and simply focus on being present and connecting with others.

Ultimately, the practice of relational attention is about taking the time to slow down, be still, and connect with ourselves and others in a meaningful way. By engaging in practices that cultivate this deeper form of attention, we can experience a greater sense of vitality, flourishing, and connectedness in our lives. So, the next time you find yourself caught up in the busyness of life, take a moment to pause, reflect, and connect with the deeper aspects of yourself and your relationships. You may be surprised by the profound impact it can have on your well-being and sense of connectedness. She just wrote. And what came out was a stream of consciousness, unfiltered writing that she called “Morning Pages.” These pages were not meant to be read by anyone else, not even herself. They were just a way for her to clear her mind, to get rid of all the clutter and noise that was preventing her from being creative.

The practice of Morning Pages is simple: every morning, before doing anything else, you sit down with a pen and paper and write three pages of whatever comes to mind. It could be your dreams, your fears, your hopes, your frustrations. It doesn’t matter. The key is to write without judgment, without editing, without worrying about grammar or punctuation. Just let the words flow.

And what Julia Cameron found, and what many others have found since then, is that this simple exercise can be incredibly powerful. It can help you tap into your creativity, your intuition, your innermost thoughts and feelings. It can help you uncover patterns and insights that you didn’t even know were there. It can help you let go of control and perfectionism, and embrace the messy, imperfect, beautiful process of creation.

In a way, Morning Pages are a form of ritual, a way to create a sacred space for yourself, a space where you can be vulnerable, honest, and true. It’s a way to connect with yourself, to listen to yourself, to be present with yourself. And just like the rituals that Fred Rogers used in his show, Morning Pages can have a vitalizing effect. They can help you feel more alive, more connected, more in tune with yourself and the world around you.

So, if you’re feeling stuck, if you’re feeling overwhelmed, if you’re feeling lost or disconnected, maybe it’s time to try Morning Pages. Maybe it’s time to create a space for yourself, a space where you can be yourself, completely and unapologetically. Maybe it’s time to let go of control and perfectionism, and embrace the messy, imperfect, beautiful process of creation. Who knows what insights and revelations you might uncover along the way? Give it a try. You might be surprised at what you find. She just walked to her desk and started scribbling whatever was on her mind: ‘Oh, I have a headache and the cockroach is crawling across the porch,’ or whatever. And, what she found was that this process–three pages a day, no matter what, whatever you express–ended up being extraordinarily vitalizing and liberating for her, both as a person and as an artist. She started to teach some classes. All of a sudden, people are passing around her handouts like they’re the sacred writ. She, on a whim, publishes a book. It’s now sold millions and millions and millions of copies; it’s called The Artist’s Way, and it’s a series of exercises built on letting go of control and creating meaningful connection–in a creative sense.

But, it’s not just artists who have benefited from this book. When you look at the people who regularly do Morning Pages, it is a dazzling variety of skilled people who make this part of their routine. Why does it work? Well, there’s no task, there’s no control. You’re simply surrendering to whatever comes out, and it’s really powerful.

Russ Roberts: Do you do it?

Daniel Coyle: This is my problem: I struggle with–I’m used to writing with a goal, and so it’s very hard for me to let go of that and stop. I catch myself, ‘Oh, I’m really trying to put the spin on that phrase. That’s a really nice one.’ I start judging. But, when I do, it really is powerful. I do it maybe half the time. But I need to make it every day.

Russ Roberts: My guess is it’s harder for writers than it is for other types of artists, right?

Daniel Coyle: Yeah, yeah. We should do something else: morning pottery or morning dance or some other form that we’re not good at.

Russ Roberts: Yeah, that’s probably true. I have never done it. I love the idea of it, I think it’s fascinating.

Russ Roberts: The last thing I want to talk about with respect to control is John Gottman and Julie Schwartz’s insights into marriage. Give us a little bit of an introduction to that. I want to come back to one very specific thing they say. But, what’s their general strategy for thinking about marriage and how to have a good relationship?

Daniel Coyle: Theirs is a good story. For many years, the relationship business–like, there have been a lot of different programs to improve relationships. Back in the 1930s, I think they had a scorecard, where you’d deduct or add points depending on how your partner behaved. And, a lot of these systems were built on this idea that a relationship is a machine that needs to be fixed, and when you fix machines, you find the broken part and you replace it. So, that’s the model around which a lot of relationship therapy used to be.

And, Gottman and Schwartz were kind of a unique couple. He was a scientist. He had something called a love lab in the University of Washington where he would track in real time–with video cameras and recorders–he had couples come in and talk. And then he would see what their patterns of behavior are. And Schwartz was a top clinician. And, they came together; and their insight was, ‘Well, what if relationships aren’t machines? What if they’re not machines? What if they’re, like, these living systems, and the whole thing is to get people to pay attention to each other in a different way, to stop controlling each other, and start responding in the relationship, responding?’

And so, they developed a series of sort of moves. They’re kind of like a yoga class. Like, one of them is, like, Turn Toward, which is: whenever your partner makes a bid for your attention–maybe they clear their throat, maybe they walk in the room and have a look on their face–do you turn toward them? When they share something difficult, do you turn toward them, are you neutral, or do you turn away?

And, Gottman’s research will show that turning toward is an incredible indicator of a healthy relationship. Turning away or being neutral is an indicator of a bad relationship.

And so, there’s a whole bunch of these different things that they talk about, figuring out the love maps of your people are–my favorite one is Scanning for Appreciation. Our task attention loves to scan for problems, like, ‘Oh, there it is again, there it is again. There’s that pattern.’ We’re really good pattern-finders, right? Pattern, pattern, pattern. And that can be death to a relationship. But, scanning for appreciation replaces that with curiosity. It clicks on your relational attention a little bit, so the lantern goes on, and all of a sudden, you’re looking around and go, ‘Oh, that was really nice. That was really thoughtful. Thank you.’ Right?

And, so it’s–all of their stuff can be viewed through the lens of these attentional systems, where instead of focusing and trying to control the other person, you’re actually in kind of a dance with them, responding to what they do, and they’re responding to what you do. And the track record shows that it actually works, unlike some of those other systems which are designed to fix and replace.

Russ Roberts: The thing I found interesting, and I’ve seen variations of this, is where you’re in an argument or some kind of disagreement or some kind of other interaction, and one person has to limit their verbal responses. They can ask a question, but they can’t comment, say; or they can comment, but they can’t defend. You give a couple of examples in the book of dialogue–one is a mock dialogue and one is an actual video–where one of the partners, or they take turns, playing this role as listener.

And, of course, my observation on this is that pattern, pattern, pattern thing. The biggest challenge of a longstanding relationship, whether it’s a friendship or a marriage, is the rut. The script. Breaking the Cycle of Unhealthy Communication Patterns

In any relationship, whether it be with a partner, friend, or family member, it’s easy to fall into a pattern of communication that feels like a broken record. One person says something, the other responds in the same way they have done countless times before, and the conversation becomes stagnant. This rut can be detrimental to the relationship, causing frustration and a lack of connection.

Daniel Coyle and Russ Roberts delve into this phenomenon in a recent discussion, exploring the idea of changing the rules of the game to break out of these unhealthy communication patterns. Coyle suggests that by putting up a new “river bank” or introducing a new constraint, we can force ourselves into a different channel of communication. This shift in perspective can help us see the relationship in a new light and break free from the cycle of repetitive interactions.

Coyle also highlights the importance of looking at our partners with appreciation and curiosity. He shares a poignant quote about how love can be found in the mystery of getting to know someone, even if we think we already know them well. This shift in mindset can help us see the depth and complexity of the people in our lives, reminding us that there is always more to discover and appreciate.

Roberts adds that this curiosity should extend to ourselves as well. We may think we know why we act a certain way, but there are often underlying reasons from our past that influence our behavior. By staying curious and open to exploring these motivations, we can gain a deeper understanding of ourselves and our loved ones.

As the conversation unfolds, Coyle shares a parable about heaven and hell, illustrating the power of perspective in shaping our experiences. In hell, people starve because they are unable to feed themselves with long spoons, while in heaven, they feed each other. This serves as a metaphor for the importance of shifting from a mindset of control to one of building relationships and supporting each other.

Ultimately, the key takeaway from this discussion is that small shifts in perspective and communication can have a significant impact on our relationships. By breaking free from the rut of repetitive interactions and approaching our interactions with curiosity and appreciation, we can foster deeper connections and create a more fulfilling dynamic with those we care about.

As Roberts aptly notes, it can be challenging to maintain these insights in our daily lives, which is why stories and parables can be powerful tools for reminding us of these important lessons. By incorporating these principles into our interactions and remaining open to new ways of communicating, we can break free from unhealthy patterns and cultivate stronger, more meaningful relationships. The impact of climate change on marine life is becoming increasingly evident as we continue to witness rising sea levels, warming waters, and changing ocean currents. These changes are having profound effects on marine ecosystems and the species that rely on them for survival.

One of the most significant impacts of climate change on marine life is the acidification of the oceans. The burning of fossil fuels releases carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, which is then absorbed by the oceans, causing the pH levels to drop and the water to become more acidic. This acidification is particularly harmful to marine organisms that rely on calcium carbonate to build their shells and skeletons, such as corals, mollusks, and some types of plankton. As the water becomes more acidic, these organisms struggle to maintain their structures, leaving them vulnerable to predation and other threats.

Rising sea temperatures are also wreaking havoc on marine life, particularly on coral reefs. Coral reefs are incredibly sensitive to changes in temperature, and even a small increase can trigger coral bleaching, a process in which the corals expel the algae that live within their tissues, causing them to turn white and eventually die. This not only threatens the survival of the corals themselves but also the countless species that rely on them for food and shelter.

Changing ocean currents and patterns are also affecting marine life in profound ways. For example, the warming waters are causing fish populations to shift their ranges, leading to conflicts with other species and disruptions in food webs. Additionally, the melting of polar ice caps is altering the salinity of the oceans, which can have cascading effects on the distribution and abundance of marine organisms.

In addition to these direct impacts, climate change is also exacerbating other threats to marine life, such as overfishing, pollution, and habitat destruction. As the oceans become warmer and more acidic, marine ecosystems are becoming increasingly fragile and less resilient to these other stressors.

To address these challenges, it is crucial that we take immediate action to reduce our carbon emissions and mitigate the impacts of climate change on marine ecosystems. This will require a concerted global effort to transition to renewable energy sources, protect and restore marine habitats, and implement sustainable fishing practices.

Ultimately, the health of our oceans is intricately linked to the health of our planet as a whole. By taking action to address climate change and protect marine life, we can ensure a sustainable future for both ourselves and the countless species that call the oceans home.