The Mattering Instinct (with Rebecca Newberger Goldstein)

The Mattering Instinct: How Our Deepest Longing Drives Us and Divides Us” by philosopher and author Rebecca Newberger Goldstein is a thought-provoking exploration of the human desire to matter. In a recent episode of EconTalk, Goldstein delves into the concept of the mattering instinct and its profound implications for our species.

Goldstein defines the mattering instinct as a fundamental longing to matter, a desire that she believes defines humanity. Drawing from her background in physics, she reflects on the Second Law of Thermodynamics and the constant battle against entropy that living systems face. She sees in this scientific principle a metaphor for the human condition, where individuals resist the forces of insignificance and strive to make an impact in the world.

Economist Russ Roberts joins the conversation, sharing his own fascination with the mattering instinct and its overlooked significance in economic analysis. He highlights the distinction between mere material wealth and the deeper sense of fulfillment that comes from feeling valued and meaningful. Roberts emphasizes the importance of human connection and purpose in combating the sense of isolation that can lead to tragic outcomes like mass violence.

Goldstein recounts a powerful anecdote about a former neo-Nazi she encountered, whose journey from hate to understanding was driven by his desperate need to matter. Despite their differences, Goldstein was able to connect with him on a profound level by acknowledging and addressing his longing for significance. This example underscores the universal nature of the mattering instinct and its potential to bridge divides and foster empathy.

As Goldstein reflects on the evolution of her theory, she acknowledges her initial skepticism of grand theories that purport to explain everything. However, the pervasive influence of the mattering instinct in shaping human behavior and societal dynamics compelled her to share her insights in “The Mattering Instinct.” She hopes that by shedding light on this fundamental aspect of human nature, she can contribute to a more compassionate and understanding world.

In a time marked by division and discord, Goldstein’s exploration of the mattering instinct offers a compelling perspective on the underlying motivations that drive us as individuals and as a society. By recognizing and honoring the longing to matter in ourselves and others, we may find common ground and build a more cohesive and empathetic world. As Goldstein aptly puts it, the mattering instinct drives us, but it also has the power to unite us.

Russ Roberts: Absolutely. Self-interest is a natural part of being human. It’s not necessarily a negative trait. We all have our own desires, needs, and goals that we prioritize in our lives. Selfishness, on the other hand, implies a disregard for others and a lack of empathy or consideration for their well-being. It’s important to distinguish between the two.

When we filter our experiences and interactions through the framework of self-interest, we are better able to understand our own motivations and behaviors. We can also better comprehend the actions and reactions of those around us. This framework allows us to see the world through a lens of individual agency and personal responsibility.

By recognizing the role of self-interest in shaping our thoughts and actions, we can make more informed decisions and navigate our relationships more effectively. It’s not about being selfish or self-centered, but rather acknowledging and embracing our innate drive to prioritize our own well-being.

As we engage with the world around us, it’s important to constantly evaluate and reflect on how our self-interest influences our perceptions and judgments. This self-awareness can lead to greater empathy, understanding, and connection with others.

So, the next time you pick up a newspaper or engage in a conversation, consider how the framework of self-interest shapes your interpretation of the information presented. By being mindful of this perspective, you can gain a deeper insight into yourself and those around you.

Ultimately, embracing the framework of self-interest can lead to greater personal growth, improved relationships, and a more fulfilling life. It’s not about being selfish, but rather about understanding and embracing the inherent drive we all have to prioritize our own well-being.

So, the next time you find yourself filtering your experiences through this framework, remember that it’s a powerful tool for self-reflection and understanding. Embrace your self-interest, and use it as a guiding principle in navigating the complexities of life.

In her discussion with Russ Roberts, Rebecca Newberger Goldstein delves into the complex nature of the human desire to matter. She connects this desire to Adam Smith’s quote about wanting to be loved and lovely, emphasizing the innate need for attention, admiration, and respect. Goldstein suggests that this desire is hardwired into our evolutionary heritage, driving us to resist entropy and seek validation for our self-centeredness.

Goldstein’s unique perspective on this matter centers around the idea that our quest for validation is not just about seeking external approval, but also about justifying our own self-awareness. She argues that our capacity for self-reflection allows us to step outside ourselves and interrogate our own actions and motivations. This introspection can lead to feelings of unease and self-doubt, as we grapple with the discrepancy between the attention we pay to ourselves and our relative importance in the grand scheme of things.

The concept of “mattering” is crucial to Goldstein’s argument, as she defines it as the feeling of being deserving of attention. She suggests that ultimately, the attention we seek is our own, as we constantly fixate on ourselves and our own existence. This self-centeredness can lead to feelings of unworthiness and self-loathing, particularly in individuals suffering from severe depression.

By examining extreme cases of self-doubt and self-loathing, Goldstein sheds light on the underlying human need to feel validated and justified in our existence. She suggests that this desire for validation makes us value-seeking creatures, constantly striving to prove our worth and significance in the world.

Overall, Goldstein’s nuanced exploration of the human desire to matter offers a thought-provoking perspective on the complexities of self-awareness and self-validation. Her insights into the nature of consciousness and self-reflection provide valuable insights into the psychology of human behavior and the quest for meaning in life. In our daily lives, we are often consumed by thoughts of self-obsession. We worry about embarrassing ourselves, performing well at work, impressing others, and achieving our goals. This constant focus on ourselves is a defining characteristic of being human. Unlike animals, who live in the moment and simply satisfy their basic needs, we are plagued by feelings of guilt, shame, and insecurity. We find it hard to just relax and have a good time without worrying about the future or past.

Author Rebecca Newberger Goldstein delves into the concept of mattering in her book, exploring the different ways in which people seek validation and purpose in their lives. She introduces the idea of a Mattering Map, which categorizes the various strategies individuals use to feel important and valued. These strategies include transcendent mattering, social mattering, competitive mattering, and heroic striving mattering.

Transcendent mattering involves finding a sense of purpose and significance in the universe. Believers in this form of mattering feel that they were created intentionally by a higher power and have a role to play in the grand scheme of things. This belief provides a deep sense of meaning and fulfillment, but can also be challenging for those who have lost their faith and struggle to find purpose without a higher power guiding them.

Socializers, on the other hand, seek validation and worth through their relationships with others. They strive to matter to those around them, whether through acts of kindness, dominance, or power. This form of mattering can be both positive and negative, depending on how individuals choose to interact with the people in their lives.

Competitive mattering involves seeking validation through success and achievement. Individuals who subscribe to this form of mattering measure their worth based on how they stack up against others in terms of accomplishments, wealth, or status. This constant comparison can lead to feelings of inadequacy and insecurity if one feels they are falling short in some way.

Lastly, heroic striving mattering involves pursuing a sense of significance through acts of courage, selflessness, or altruism. Those who seek this form of mattering often feel driven to make a positive impact on the world and leave a lasting legacy behind them. While this can be a noble pursuit, it can also be a heavy burden to bear, as the pressure to constantly strive for greatness can be overwhelming.

Overall, the concept of mattering is a complex and multifaceted one, with individuals seeking validation and purpose in a variety of ways. By understanding the different strategies people use to feel important and valued, we can gain insight into the depths of human consciousness and the driving forces behind our actions and behaviors. Fame has always been a driving force for individuals seeking validation and recognition in society. In our modern age, fame has become more accessible than ever before. With platforms like YouTube and social media, anyone can become famous with just a few clicks. This ease of achieving fame has led to a rise in what author Rebecca Newberger Goldstein calls “socializers.”

Through her conversations, Goldstein has observed that many people, perhaps the majority of us, view fame as a measure of significance. This desire to matter to others can manifest in both healthy and unhealthy ways. Some individuals strive for fame and recognition to fulfill their need for validation from others, while others seek to achieve excellence in their chosen field, whether it be intellectual, artistic, athletic, or ethical pursuits.

Goldstein highlights the story of Baba Amte, a man who dedicated his life to eradicating leprosy in India. Despite being irreligious, Amte was considered a saint for his selfless actions and commitment to his ethical beliefs. He epitomized the archetype of a heroic striver, someone who strives to achieve personal standards of excellence without seeking validation from others.

In her book, Goldstein categorizes individuals into four groups based on their motivations for seeking significance: socializers, heroic strivers, transcenders, and competitive matterers. Competitive matterers are those who view significance as a zero-sum game, always striving to outshine others and be the most important person in the room. This competitive mindset can lead to unhealthy behaviors and a constant need for validation from others.

Goldstein herself identifies as a heroic striver, with her mattering project revolving around understanding the concept of significance. She believes that where individuals fall on the mattering map is influenced by their temperament, culture, and personal experiences. Goldstein encourages readers to embrace the idea of “kvelling,” taking pride in others’ accomplishments and celebrating their success rather than feeling jealous or competitive.

Ultimately, Goldstein’s observations shed light on the diverse motivations behind why people seek fame and recognition. Whether it’s through socializing, striving for excellence, or competing for significance, the quest to matter to others is a universal human experience. By understanding the different ways in which individuals seek significance, we can cultivate a greater sense of empathy and appreciation for the achievements of others. In a recent conversation, Rebecca Newberger Goldstein and Russ Roberts delved into the concept of mattering projects and how they shape our lives and relationships. Goldstein highlighted the importance of cultivating a sense that there is enough mattering to go around, rather than viewing it in zero-sum terms. She emphasized the need for each individual, especially children, to feel valued and significant within their families and communities.

Goldstein shared a poignant story about a mother who realized that her middle son felt less loved because she didn’t always respond to his questions while doing dishes, unlike his brothers. This small observation revealed the child’s unique mind and deep need for validation. It served as a reminder for parents to be mindful of how they demonstrate love and attention to their children, as it profoundly impacts their sense of self-worth.

The discussion then turned to the emotional power of Andrew Wiles’ journey to prove Fermat’s Last Theorem, a mathematical puzzle that captivated the world. Wiles’s struggle, triumph, and subsequent setback resonated deeply with viewers, highlighting the universal desire for individuals to matter and achieve their goals. Goldstein’s insights shed light on the complex emotions tied to personal quests for significance and recognition.

Roberts raised the issue of proselytizing and how individuals may judge others based on their chosen mattering projects, such as fly fishing or religious beliefs. Goldstein pointed out the tendency for people to devalue or criticize pursuits that seem trivial or insignificant to them, highlighting the need for empathy and understanding in recognizing the importance of individual passions and interests.

Overall, the conversation underscored the profound impact of mattering projects on our lives, relationships, and sense of self. By fostering a culture of inclusivity, respect, and validation, we can create a more harmonious and compassionate society where everyone’s worth is acknowledged and honored. The urge to proselytize or universalize our beliefs and values is a common human trait that can lead to both positive and negative consequences. In her conversation with Russ Roberts, Rebecca Newberger Goldstein addresses the tendency for individuals to believe that their own mattering project is superior to others. She highlights the importance of tolerance and acceptance of different paths to finding meaning and purpose in life.

Goldstein draws on the philosophy of Spinoza to emphasize that not all ways of pursuing our mattering are acceptable. However, she also acknowledges that a variety of approaches can be valid and meaningful. She warns against the urge to impose one’s beliefs on others, whether it be through religion, philosophy, or personal values. The desire to universalize our own perspective can lead to intolerance and conflict, as seen in historical examples such as Socrates’ trial in ancient Athens.

The conversation delves into the concept of the unexamined life, popularized by Socrates, which suggests that a life without introspection and self-awareness is not worth living. Goldstein challenges this notion by highlighting the diversity of human experiences and the importance of individual autonomy in choosing one’s mattering project. She cautions against the assumption that there is a single objective standard of value that applies to everyone.

Goldstein also reflects on the beauty and complexity of human nature, noting that our longing to matter is a fundamental aspect of our existence. She acknowledges the dark side of the urge to make a difference, citing historical figures like Hitler and Stalin as examples of individuals who wielded power in destructive ways. Despite the potential for harm, Goldstein emphasizes the heroic aspect of the human quest for significance, even in everyday pursuits.

In conclusion, Goldstein suggests that the pursuit of meaning and purpose is a deeply personal and subjective endeavor. While there are universal aspects of the human experience, such as the desire to matter, each individual must navigate their own path to fulfillment. By embracing diversity and respecting the autonomy of others, we can cultivate a more inclusive and compassionate society that honors the unique contributions of each person. In a world where material comfort is abundant, the United States stands out as a top contender in terms of wealth and prosperity. However, despite this wealth, there is a prevailing sense of malaise, a crisis of mattering. In a society where money is not the key to happiness, what truly matters is a sense of purpose, significance, and flourishing.

Renowned author Rebecca Goldstein delves into this concept of mattering in her book, “The Mattering Instinct.” She argues that human beings have an innate longing to matter, to feel connected, and to find purpose in their lives. This longing, if left unfulfilled, can lead to destructive behaviors and consequences.

Goldstein emphasizes the importance of love and connectedness in human life, noting that loneliness is antithetical to flourishing. She suggests that Freud’s idea of love and work as the cornerstones of humanness be expanded to include connectedness and the mattering instinct. Without a sense of purpose and meaning, individuals may feel wasted, resentful, or even self-loathing.

It is crucial, Goldstein argues, for society to create opportunities for individuals to feel that they matter, that their lives have purpose and coherence. Whether through social relationships, work, or personal achievements, everyone deserves to feel valued and significant. This sense of mattering is essential for human well-being and must be nurtured in all aspects of life, from family dynamics to social interactions.

Ultimately, understanding and addressing the mattering instinct is crucial for building a society where everyone feels valued, connected, and fulfilled. By recognizing and meeting this innate human need, we can create a world where individuals thrive and flourish, rather than succumb to loneliness and despair. Rebecca Newberger Goldstein recently had the pleasure of being a guest on EconTalk, where she engaged in a fascinating discussion with the host. During the interview, Goldstein shared her insights on a variety of topics, showcasing her deep knowledge and thoughtful perspectives.

One of the key points that Goldstein touched on during the conversation was the importance of philosophy in today’s society. She highlighted how philosophy allows us to question our assumptions, challenge our beliefs, and engage in critical thinking. By encouraging philosophical inquiry, Goldstein believes that we can better understand the world around us and make more informed decisions.

Additionally, Goldstein emphasized the value of literature and storytelling in shaping our understanding of the human experience. She discussed how literature has the power to convey complex ideas and emotions, helping us to empathize with others and see the world from different perspectives. Through storytelling, Goldstein argued, we can gain a deeper appreciation for the diversity of human experiences and the complexities of the human condition.

Overall, Goldstein’s conversation on EconTalk was both enlightening and thought-provoking. Her insights into philosophy, literature, and the human experience provided listeners with a new lens through which to view the world. We are grateful to have had the opportunity to hear from such a talented and insightful thinker. Thank you, Rebecca, for being a part of EconTalk.