Making Your 80,000 Hours Count (with Benjamin Todd)

Benjamin Todd is a visionary leader in the field of career development, focusing on how individuals can make a meaningful impact on the world through their professional choices. As the founder of 80,000 Hours, a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping people find careers that address pressing global issues, Todd is at the forefront of a movement to redefine success and fulfillment in the workplace.

In a recent interview with EconTalk host Russ Roberts, Todd delved into the core principles of his organization and his book, “80,000 Hours: How to Have a Fulfilling Career That Does Good.” The conversation began with the significance of the title, which reflects the average length of a career – 80,000 hours. Todd emphasized that this timeframe represents a significant opportunity to make a difference in the world and underscores the importance of choosing a career path with purpose and impact in mind.

Roberts posed a challenging question to Todd: why should individuals care about making a positive impact through their careers, rather than simply pursuing financial success and personal happiness? Todd’s response highlighted the potential for individuals to have a substantial impact on critical issues such as AI development and pandemic prevention, while also finding fulfillment and personal satisfaction in their work.

The conversation then turned to the lack of research-based career advice available to young people, with Todd noting that much of the guidance offered is superficial and fails to address the long-term implications of career choices. He emphasized the importance of exploring different paths, building valuable skills, and continuously reassessing one’s career trajectory to maximize impact and personal fulfillment.

Throughout the interview, Todd challenged conventional notions of success and encouraged listeners to think beyond traditional career paths to consider how they can contribute meaningfully to society. By reframing the concept of a career as a series of evolving choices and opportunities, Todd offers a refreshing perspective on how individuals can align their professional pursuits with their values and aspirations.

As the conversation concluded, Todd’s message resonated as a call to action for individuals to approach their careers with intentionality and purpose, recognizing the potential for each individual to make a positive impact on the world. Through his work with 80,000 Hours and his book, Todd is empowering individuals to rethink their professional paths and strive for a career that not only brings personal fulfillment but also contributes to a better future for all.

But, under certain assumptions, your salary is related to how much value you create in the world. Again, lots of footnotes, caveats, and so on. But that’s sometimes true. And, so, the idea–I would always tell my students: Do not take the job that pays the most money. That’s a bad rule of life to follow.

And, it would certainly be untrue that the job that pays the most money creates the most value. That’s not true; but there’s sometimes a relationship. And you don’t make any defense of that–of the idea of using your talents and your 80,000 hours to delight or to bring comfort or to solve a problem for an individual. You’re very focused on big problems. Do you want to say anything on behalf of the smaller stuff or defend the focus on the bigger problems?

Russ Roberts: Trillion is a big number, right? And you talk about that in the book.

I think it’s worse than the imperfect correlation between salary and producing value. I think the way I would put it in its starkest terms is that: the market rewards people for giving people what they want. Sometimes what they want is not attractive in general. Sometimes what they want imposes costs on other people that they don’t take account of. Sometimes what they want is the result of regulations or perverse regulations that incentivize destructive behavior on the part of lawyers, financiers, financial players, and so on. But, I think–

Russ Roberts: Addictive. Well, I meant that in the first category. You can defend it. Economists do sometimes. I have, but I’m less comfortable with that as I get older–the fact that somebody wants something that could kill them. Sometimes–I try to be respectful of their desires, but I also understand that sometimes those desires are literally self-destructive.

But I’m just thinking about the more–let’s take a silly example, maybe, of Jeff Bezos. So, I have a lot of gratitude towards Jeff Bezos. He has this idea called Amazon. It’s a loser, literally. They lose tons of money for a long, long time. But ultimately he has given the world–forget the rest of the stuff. We can debate a thousand things he’s done as good or bad or indifferent. But the idea that he has made it inexpensive to acquire books, I deeply appreciate. But, is that a life well-lived in your view, in the view of 80,000 Hours? Just that part, again, you can–

Russ Roberts: Yeah. We’ll come back to that. It’s a really important idea.

13:09

Russ Roberts: I just want to talk about the, just for now, the direct impact of devoting your life or your daily life, when you’re in a particular job, to a particular function. I would say it this way; I think this is generally a problem with a utilitarian approach, which tends to emphasize things that can be measured. So, I would suggest–again, I’m going to just assume that Jeff Bezos, let’s say, he starts–which he did as a bookseller–and, let’s say, he never did anything else. He never diversified into toilet paper or the two zillion other things that he’s done. And, again, there’s lots of controversy. Some of it I think is incorrect, but some of it maybe is justified.

But, let’s say, all he did–and for me, this is not a small thing–all he did was to give people pleasure from having more access to books. Sometimes, that’s for people who live far away from a bookstore. Sometimes, it’s to the ease of which you could get the book.

Sometimes, it was the price of the book, although in the early days, I think he subsidized it. He was especially using the money of his investors to make it cheaper for me to acquire the books that I love. But he doesn’t save any lives in this story, right? And, he’s a talented man, and you could judge him. I won’t. But I think one could–you could perhaps–judge him for a failure to devote his life to something more significant than less expensive books. But I wouldn’t. And, do you want to make that case? Or, do you disagree? Do you think what he did was important? If that was all he did, would you say that was not an important thing he did or use of his skills?

Benjamin Todd: I mean, even thinking even more broadly than books in particular, I mean, I do agree making the world wealthier is better, and it’s not that you only have to save lives. In general, as the world has got wealthier, that’s had lots of other good consequences. So, simply contributing to that does help. Though again, I mean, I think ultimately it would come down to the scale of both things. And, for many people, I think there’s much more impactful things they can do than just running a business. But I definitely don’t want to say there’s, like, only one way to contribute.

Russ Roberts: Personally, I would value very highly someone being able to start a business that provides meaningful work to lots of people. And, that solves a very small problem, which is: opportunities for people to use their skills and so on. And, you can react to that if you want. But I’m also happy to turn to two pieces of advice you give, which are: ‘Don’t chase money,’ and ‘Don’t chase ease.’ I think a lot of people chase both of those. Why shouldn’t they?

Benjamin Todd: Well, yeah. I mean, many people say just money doesn’t matter happiness as well. And, I think that’s also wrong. And, I think if we try and look at all the evidence on this, money makes you happier but only a little, is how I sum it up.

And so, I mean there were these papers that also claimed once you hit a certain level of income–like, I think it was $75,000–there’s no further benefit. And, I also think that’s probably wrong. It’s probably a kind of logarithmic relationship for quite a long way. But that does mean that it’s after around $100,000 a year in the United States, it’s just not making that much difference to your life satisfaction or happiness.

So, I think around that point, it just starts to become not a very important goal compared to other things.

And, for example, I think a thing that really drives people’s job satisfaction is: On a very hour to hour basis, how engaging do they find the work? And, do they get into a sense of flow?

But this tends to be pretty overlooked, I think, when people think about what makes for a good job. They tend to kind of think of, like: What would people think of me if I had this career and this more far mode type picture of things? But, your actual satisfaction is much more driven by the hour-to-hour basis.

Russ Roberts: You also say, Don’t follow your passion.’ What’s wrong with that? People give that advice all the time. I agree. I think it’s kind of mindless and dangerous, but what’s your take on it? What’s your take on it?

Benjamin Todd: Well, I mean, the thing that’s correct about it is that being intrinsically motivated is really good. But then, it’s then interpreted as the prescription to find that is to think about what your biggest interests are, which almost all young people say is sport, art, and music. And that’s in surveys, which is not surprising. And then, the key to find a fulfilling career is to find a career that matches your particular hobbies or interests. And, that’s just a very limiting view. Like, a lot of people, they think, ‘Well, I love literature, so I need to become a writer in order to have a fulfilling career.’ And, there’s actually probably many more paths that they could consider that they would find fulfilling as well.

And, by really narrowing themselves down, they’ve cut off a lot of options. And in fact, they probably even led themselves into the most competitive areas because most people are passionate about the same things. And, yeah, we also find only a couple of percent of jobs in the economy are in arts, sports, and music. So, you’ve got the majority of people trying to crowd into a small range of fields.

Russ Roberts: And of course, the ones that successfully crowd in there are passionate about it usually, and they’ll tell you how great it is, and they’ll tell you to follow your passion. Which is really bad advice, because they’re not typical. They’re the outliers who made it. The ones who didn’t, we don’t–they usually come don’t to the platform.

Benjamin Todd: There’s a big problem with a lot of careers advice is it’s basically just based on a bunch of stories of successful people.

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

So, I like your summary. I very much like your summary of what a person should think about in terms of the job itself. We’ll come back to the question of what that job should be focused on. But, you talk about the predictors of job satisfaction, which are: Freedom to decide how to perform your work. I think that’s really important in the day-to-day, hourly, hour-to-hour part of it. Clear tasks with the well-defined start and end–lovely. Variety in the nature of those tasks. And: Feedback so you know how well you’re doing.

And then, you talk about what then matters is that the work is engaging, and that’s those factors. It helps others that you’re good at it, and you have supportive colleagues–or, I would say pleasant colleagues, delightful colleagues, funny colleagues, kind colleagues. But, who you work alongside matters a great deal. And, I think people tend not to think about that, especially when they interview for the job, they have a very romantic ideal. And they’ll tell you, ‘I’ve always wanted to be a,’ and then fill-in-the-blank, ‘that job’; but they didn’t think about what it’s like to be a fill-in-the-blank alongside people who are not nice to you, or whatever else is wrong with that actual version of that job. But, talk about in general, those kind of issues and why they’re important.

When it comes to finding satisfaction in your work, the context in which you work plays a significant role. It’s not just about the job title or the actual work itself, but also about the environment and the people you work with. Engaging work can be found in various fields, even those that may seem boring at first glance, if you are part of a great team and working towards a meaningful goal. On the other hand, even if you are passionate about a particular field, working with a bad boss or unpleasant colleagues can make you miserable.

This realization opens up more options for individuals than they may initially think. Many people feel constrained by their major or their perceived career path, but the truth is that there are a wide range of opportunities available if you consider the conditions for satisfaction beyond just the field of study.

These insights also have implications for leadership and management. Providing employees with the freedom to perform their work, clear tasks with defined goals, variety in their roles, and meaningful feedback can greatly enhance their engagement and satisfaction in the workplace. Job crafting, or designing roles to be more engaging and meaningful, is a common practice that can improve employee satisfaction and productivity.

When it comes to personal fit and career choices, it’s important to consider not just what you want to do, but also what you will excel at. Choosing a career path that aligns with your skills and strengths can lead to greater fulfillment and impact.

One interesting aspect discussed in the book is the idea that being a doctor may not be as impactful as it is commonly perceived. While working in healthcare can have a positive impact, there are other fields where individuals with the potential to become doctors could have even greater impact. Factors such as the overall increase in life expectancy being attributed to various factors beyond healthcare, including public health, sanitation, and overall wealth, challenge the notion that being a doctor is the most valuable profession in terms of making a difference in the world.

Ultimately, finding satisfaction in your work goes beyond the job title or the field you work in. It’s about the environment, the people you work with, and the opportunities for engagement and impact that your role provides. By considering these factors, individuals can make more informed career choices that lead to greater fulfillment and success.

The impact of healthcare on our lives is undeniable. From doctors to nurses to hospitals and equipment, the healthcare system plays a crucial role in extending our life expectancy. However, it’s important to recognize that there are diminishing returns when it comes to the number of healthcare providers in a population. While each additional doctor initially has a significant impact on reducing ill health, this impact levels off as more doctors are added.

Some argue that the curve actually bends down in countries like the United States, suggesting that marginal healthcare may even be counterproductive due to side effects. While this may be a controversial claim, there is evidence to suggest that the impact of healthcare diminishes over time.

Additionally, the availability of medical school spots means that if you don’t take a spot, someone else will. While this doesn’t mean you’re having no impact, it does mean that the field is improved overall by increasing the supply of doctors. However, the impact of an individual doctor may be less than intuitively expected.

In the United Kingdom, for example, it is estimated that a doctor saves about one life every 10 years of work. While this is still a meaningful impact, it is less than what many people may assume.

Moving beyond the healthcare sector, there are existential challenges that the human race faces, such as climate change. Despite the importance of these issues, it can be difficult to make a real difference. Simply wanting to change the world is not enough; it requires quantifiable impact and research to truly make a difference.

Effective altruism, a movement focused on maximizing the impact of charitable giving, emphasizes the importance of evidence-based approaches to social and environmental issues. By quantifying the impact of our actions and focusing on outcomes rather than just intentions, we can work towards making a meaningful difference in the world.

Ultimately, while it may be challenging to address complex global issues, taking a thoughtful and evidence-based approach can help us to have a more significant impact on the world around us. Whether it’s through healthcare, climate change advocacy, or other areas of social concern, understanding the nuances of impact can lead to more effective and meaningful change. In a world where big names and celebrities often dominate the headlines, it’s easy to overlook the everyday heroes who quietly make a huge impact on the lives of others. Benjamin Todd, author of the book “80,000 Hours: Finding a Fulfilling Career that Does Good,” sheds light on these unsung heroes who have made a significant difference through their persistence and dedication.

One such hero highlighted in Todd’s book is David Nalin, a doctor who worked in refugee camps in India where many people were dying from cholera and dehydration. Instead of relying on costly intravenous drips, Nalin discovered that simply drinking a solution of water and salt in the right concentration could be just as effective in hydrating patients and reducing mortality rates. This simple intervention, once scaled up, has saved millions of lives each year.

Nalin’s story is just one example of how ordinary individuals can have an extraordinary impact on the world. Despite not being a household name, his work has had a profound effect on global health outcomes. Similarly, Ignaz Semmelweis, who discovered the importance of handwashing in preventing infections during childbirth, faced resistance and dismissal from the medical community despite the obvious benefits of his findings.

Todd argues that these unsung heroes deserve more recognition and praise for their contributions to society. While we often celebrate wealthy individuals for their material possessions, it’s essential to acknowledge and honor those who dedicate their lives to making a positive difference in the world. These individuals may not receive Nobel Prizes or widespread fame, but their impact is immeasurable and deserving of our admiration.

In a culture that values fame and fortune, it’s crucial to shift our focus towards recognizing and supporting individuals who are working tirelessly behind the scenes to improve the lives of others. By celebrating the achievements of these unsung heroes, we can inspire others to follow in their footsteps and create a more compassionate and impactful society. Income inequality is a contentious issue that continues to spark debate and criticism. However, amidst the arguments and objections, one thing remains clear: encouraging people to do good can have a significant impact on society. In a recent podcast, Russ Roberts and Benjamin Todd discussed the importance of philanthropy and charitable giving, highlighting the positive effects it can have on the world.

One example that was discussed was the criticism faced by individuals, such as billionaires, who donate to medical research. While some may question their motives or label it as non-democratic, the reality is that these donations can save lives and improve healthcare for millions of people. Russ Roberts pointed out that instead of criticizing these individuals, we should be applauding and honoring them for their contributions.

The conversation then shifted to the concept of earning to give, where individuals earn money in the corporate sector and donate a portion of it to charity. While this approach may not be as popular or widely discussed as traditional forms of charity work, it can still have a significant impact. Benjamin Todd shared the story of Fred Mulder, who turned a profit from selling Picasso prints and used the money to fund charitable initiatives, ultimately enabling others to make a difference in the charity sector.

When it comes to personal charitable giving, Benjamin Todd emphasized the importance of choosing organizations that have a real impact on the most pressing issues in the world. He advised individuals to research and donate to organizations that are effective and have room for funding, ensuring that their contributions make a meaningful difference. GiveDirectly was highlighted as an example of an organization that directly transfers money to the world’s poorest people, doubling their income and improving their quality of life.

Despite the challenges and criticisms surrounding income inequality and philanthropy, it is clear that donating to worthy causes can have a positive impact on society. By encouraging individuals to do more good when they can, we can work towards creating a better and more equitable world for all. Charity and giving back to those in need has long been a tradition in many cultures and religions. For some, like the Jewish community, it is a religious obligation to give 10% of their income to charity. This practice, known as tithing, has a long history and has resonated throughout human history.

But giving 10% is just the minimum. Some people choose to give even more, such as 20% or even 50% of their income. The act of giving can be transformative, especially when it comes to helping those in desperate poverty. For example, doubling the income of someone living in extreme poverty can be life-changing for them and their family.

So why don’t more people give generously to those in need, even when they have the means to do so? One reason may be social norms. In cultures where giving to charity is the norm, more people tend to participate. Additionally, some people may be more willing to make sacrifices in their career, such as taking a significant pay cut to become a teacher, than they are to give a portion of their income to charity.

Another reason may be the lack of direct feedback or joy that comes from giving to those in need. Unlike seeing the immediate impact of helping someone in person, giving to charity often lacks that direct connection. This can lead to skepticism about whether the donation is actually making a difference.

Ultimately, getting people to care about and prioritize giving to those in need is a complex challenge. It requires creating a culture where giving is the norm and providing information about the impact that donations can have. Money can be a powerful tool for helping others, as it allows individuals to trust that their contribution will be used for the benefit of those in need.

In the end, giving back to those less fortunate is not only a moral imperative, but it can also bring joy and fulfillment to the giver. By making generosity a priority and supporting those in need, we can create a more compassionate and supportive society for all. Acts of generosity are often driven by a sense of connection and familiarity. People are more likely to help those who are part of their community, share their religion or culture, or are simply their neighbor. Throughout history, this sense of connection has motivated individuals to go beyond their own self-interest and lend a helping hand to others.

However, the concept of giving to those who are not like us is a bold and challenging one. It requires individuals to set aside their natural instincts and extend their kindness to strangers who may not offer the same feedback or joy as those closer to them. While giving money to those in need may not always be the best solution, especially if it takes away agency and motivation, there are instances where it is necessary, such as when someone is starving.

Despite the potential impact of giving, many charities are uncertain about the effectiveness of their work. It is crucial to support organizations that have a proven track record of making a difference. By focusing on neglected issues that are not adequately addressed by society, individuals can have a more significant impact on the world around them.

One practical piece of advice for those working on abstract causes is to find fulfillment in their day-to-day work and surround themselves with supportive colleagues. While the immediate effects of their actions may not be visible, having engaging and meaningful work can lead to a satisfying and rewarding life.

The challenge of giving to strangers lies in the lack of interpersonal trust and uncertainty about how the resources will be used. It is essential to support reputable organizations that have a transparent and efficient process for distributing aid. By choosing to give to established charities like GiveDirectly, individuals can ensure that their contributions make a significant impact on those in need.

Ultimately, the key to extending kindness beyond familiar circles lies in bridging the gap between our natural instincts and the desire to help others. By cultivating a sense of empathy and understanding for those who are different from us, we can create a more compassionate and inclusive society where generosity knows no bounds. When it comes to effective charity, there are definitely challenges to consider. It’s a different ball game when you’re helping someone you know personally, like a neighbor, compared to donating to a cause where you may not have that personal connection. The human experience is complex, and accurately assessing someone’s level of need can be tricky.

One of the reasons for this complexity is self-interest. It’s natural for us to think about ourselves more often than others. While this may not always be a bad thing, it can sometimes cloud our judgment when it comes to helping those in need. Benjamin Todd, in a recent discussion, acknowledges that he is not a perfect altruist. He believes in doing what’s best within each sphere of his life, including making the world a better place.

In his book, Todd emphasizes the importance of focusing on making the world better in general, but he also recognizes that there are other aspects of life that we should pay attention to. It’s all about finding a balance and doing what we can to contribute positively to society.

In conclusion, effective charity requires us to navigate the complexities of the human experience and our own self-interest. By being mindful of these factors and striving to do what’s best within our spheres of influence, we can make a meaningful impact on the world around us.